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  1. #1
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    Default Alternative to cable crossovers?

    So I'm in my 2nd week of a 5-day split routine, that incorporates cable crossovers on chest days. And for the second time, the cable machine is occupied (!!!). I replaced this with a decline dumbbell flys. Is this an appropriate alternative? Or are there better ones out there?

    Take note the route has dumbbell flies right after cable crossover.
    H: 170cm | W: 72kg | BF: ~15.5%

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    Moderator Scrutiny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdaxe View Post
    So I'm in my 2nd week of a 5-day split routine, that incorporates cable crossovers on chest days. And for the second time, the cable machine is occupied (!!!). I replaced this with a decline dumbbell flys. Is this an appropriate alternative? Or are there better ones out there?

    Take note the route has dumbbell flies right after cable crossover.
    You could always add an extra set or two to regular flyes.

    This shouldn't be any issue and even things up.

    Consistency is the key

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    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    I dont think you should use that workout... Pick a different workout.
    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

    "When in doubt, just get really, really strong. It tends to cure most problems in training and life." - Wendler

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    any reasoning behind why i shouldn't use this routine? I'm on cut btw.

    @Scrut, thanks! I'll do more sets of flies the next time i hit the chest.
    H: 170cm | W: 72kg | BF: ~15.5%

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    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdaxe View Post
    any reasoning behind why i shouldn't use this routine? I'm on cut btw.

    @Scrut, thanks! I'll do more sets of flies the next time i hit the chest.
    Because these are exercises that are a waste of your time

    Dumbbell Curl 3 15, 12, 10
    Concentration Curl 3 15, 12, 10
    Lying Tricep Extension 4 15, 12, 10, 10
    Rope Pushdown 3 15, 12, 10
    Dumbbell Extension 3 15, 12, 10
    Leg Press 3 15, 12, 10
    Leg Extension 3 20, 15, 12
    Leg Curl 4 20, 15, 12, 10
    Seated Calf Raise 3 15, 12, 10
    Decline Dumbbell Press 3 15, 12, 10
    Cable Crossovers 2 12
    Incline Flys 2 12
    Smith Machine Barbell Row 4 15, 12, 10, 10
    Wide Grip Pulldown 3 15, 12, 10
    Side Lateral Raises 3 15, 12, 10
    Dumbbell Rear Delt Fly 3 15, 12, 10
    Dumbbell Shrugs


    Also terrible rep range and bad focus on progression.
    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

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  6. #6
    Regular Poster itsn8o's Avatar
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    This is a question as Doug undoubtably knows his sh*t (far more than me), but aren't the rep schemes in that workout based on the disproven notion that more reps = tone?

    If you cut and want to keep your gains, aren't you better of hitting the big compound lifts in the rep scheme you usually do (with less volume) and just carb up over the weekend so you can repeat in the coming week?
    To push out 15 reps, you're going to have to decrease your usual working weight - so aren't you going to loose strength doing this program?

    I may be missing something in my rookie knowledge, but this program doesn't look good to me.
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    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by itsn8o View Post
    This is a question as Doug undoubtably knows his sh*t (far more than me), but aren't the rep schemes in that workout based on the disproven notion that more reps = tone?

    If you cut and want to keep your gains, aren't you better of hitting the big compound lifts in the rep scheme you usually do (with less volume) and just carb up over the weekend so you can repeat in the coming week?
    To push out 15 reps, you're going to have to decrease your usual working weight - so aren't you going to loose strength doing this program?

    I may be missing something in my rookie knowledge, but this program doesn't look good to me.
    I agree with you 100% percent! Always try get stronger .

    P.S. itsn8o, have you been to PTC in Adelaide?
    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

    "When in doubt, just get really, really strong. It tends to cure most problems in training and life." - Wendler

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    yea previous to this routine i was doing a 5x5 full body routine. I loved it, but after 3 months on it, i wanted to switch over something else. I'm not too familiar with rep ranges, and its effects on our body, hence I'm trying out the higher rep ranges to see the effects it has on my body.

    ive included more cardio this time around, and have lost some fats. but i have a feeling i have also lost muscle. nevertheless I am in a cut, and will bulk up once i hit 11% bf if i'm not liking what i see.
    H: 170cm | W: 72kg | BF: ~15.5%

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    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    You seem a bit light to be on a cut though?

    I would rather see you on an upper/lower split before that 5 day a week routine
    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

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    I've never had bf% over 20%, neither have i ever been anywhere below 14% in my entire life. I have challenged myself to reach 11% bf, and so far its an extremely hard road (poor endomorphs!). Awhile back i was in a bulk, but that didn't really go so well, as IRL stuff happened and was MIA for a long while. Got back and just decided to go attempt a cut to 11% then bulk. Its a struggle, but a challenge nevertheless.

    any advise on an upper/lower split routine?
    H: 170cm | W: 72kg | BF: ~15.5%

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    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdaxe View Post
    I've never had bf% over 20%, neither have i ever been anywhere below 14% in my entire life. I have challenged myself to reach 11% bf, and so far its an extremely hard road (poor endomorphs!). Awhile back i was in a bulk, but that didn't really go so well, as IRL stuff happened and was MIA for a long while. Got back and just decided to go attempt a cut to 11% then bulk. Its a struggle, but a challenge nevertheless.

    any advise on an upper/lower split routine?
    Ah yeah I understand, sounds good!

    Just make sure you squat 2x a week, and do a heavy press 2x a week . Or even go down the path of the power splits, 2 pressing days (bench day and overhead press day), squat day and deadlift day.
    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

    "When in doubt, just get really, really strong. It tends to cure most problems in training and life." - Wendler

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    VENI VIDI VICI Gabro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartigus View Post
    Because these are exercises that are a waste of your time

    Dumbbell Curl 3 15, 12, 10

    Dumbbell Extension 3 15, 12, 10
    Leg Press 3 15, 12, 10
    Leg Extension 3 20, 15, 12
    Leg Curl 4 20, 15, 12, 10
    Seated Calf Raise 3 15, 12, 10

    Cable Crossovers 2 12
    Incline Flys 2 12

    Wide Grip Pulldown 3 15, 12, 10
    Side Lateral Raises 3 15, 12, 10
    Dumbbell Rear Delt Fly 3 15, 12, 10
    Dumbbell Shrugs


    Also terrible rep range and bad focus on progression.
    The only way that I will believe you that this are ''waste of time'' exercises is if you post a unbelievable 4-5 training experience picture of yourself, no single way to Rome..those exercises can be used perfectly
    I do not count reps, I make every rep count !!

    175cm/75kg

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    Regular Poster itsn8o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartigus View Post
    I agree with you 100% percent! Always try get stronger .

    P.S. itsn8o, have you been to PTC in Adelaide?
    Never been. That's over West Beach way yeh? Bit out of my way.

    Do you train at PTC?
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    Have to say I agree with Spartigus about you would be better off doing an upper/lower or something similar, however those exercises are definitely by no mean whatsoever a waste of time. They are simply not as efficient as other lifts, I think is more what Spartigus should have said, which is true.
    Spartigus means (I think) and I agree, that the focus should be on improving on the 'big' lifts, ensuring that compound exercises make up the basis of your workout rather than relying on a workout schedule that looks more like a pro bodybuilders workout before a contest, that focusses on exercises that are 'supposed' to shape and tone.
    Lifts: (pre-shoulder surgery 24/7)

    180kg/396lb Back Squat
    210kg/462lb Deadlift
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    100kg Push Press
    100kg Clean
    85kg Snatch
    40kg DB Chest Press for 3x12
    600kgx5 45 degree Leg press
    24kg for 10 reps Ultra Strict Seated DB Curls (been working these hard for lols)

  15. #15
    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabro View Post
    The only way that I will believe you that this are ''waste of time'' exercises is if you post a unbelievable 4-5 training experience picture of yourself, no single way to Rome..those exercises can be used perfectly
    Well I have gained around 50lbs of muscle since I started training, I can see 2-4 of my abbs and I have never ever done a cut in my life. Does that count?

    You can use them, but how well they work, well that varies.... Sure there are many ways to Rome, but like any roads and journeys, you can go around in big enough circles till you get there, or you can bust your ass doing heavy weights all the time and get there faster and end up stronger.

    What will be better for your chest and shoulders? 10-12 heavy sets of pressing a week, or 3-6 sets of heavy pressing followed by 24 light chest and shoulder exercises? How does 12lb flies help your chest in any way?

    Quote Originally Posted by itsn8o View Post
    Never been. That's over West Beach way yeh? Bit out of my way.

    Do you train at PTC?
    I live in Sydney, there is a PTC about 40 mins away from me. Basically its one of the few hardcore gyms around, there are about 4 in Australia I think. I recommend you take a look there when you get a chance.
    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

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    VENI VIDI VICI Gabro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartigus View Post
    Well I have gained around 50lbs of muscle since I started training, I can see 2-4 of my abbs and I have never ever done a cut in my life. Does that count?

    You can use them, but how well they work, well that varies.... Sure there are many ways to Rome, but like any roads and journeys, you can go around in big enough circles till you get there, or you can bust your ass doing heavy weights all the time and get there faster and end up stronger.

    What will be better for your chest and shoulders? 10-12 heavy sets of pressing a week, or 3-6 sets of heavy pressing followed by 24 light chest and shoulder exercises? How does 12lb flies help your chest in any way?


    if someone is doing 6 heavy sets+24 light sets = total 30 sets its stupid. With 9-12 working sets you're ready to bed.

    nothing wrong in 4 sets of 200lbs bench press, 3 sets of 70lbs db bench, and 3 sets of flyes with a 30 db, dips.

    50lbs gain, I dont know, you coulb be underweight before or fat now, i dont care really, good for you 50+always, just saying that I will not believe you that leg press, lateral raises, etc are a waste unless you post a pictures of your massive physique and tell me that you dont do any of that exercises.
    Last edited by Gabro; 02-22-2012 at 07:41 PM.
    I do not count reps, I make every rep count !!

    175cm/75kg

  17. #17
    Moderator Scrutiny's Avatar
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    I'll weigh in here...

    Isolation movements can definitely be a part of an effective workout routine, however the big, compound movements should always have the main emphasis if the goal is to get stronger and grow muscle.

    I agree with Spartigus that heavy compound movements are the bread and butter to growth and strength, however isolation movements do and can play a part in further isolating a muscle group.

    As for isolation movements being 'wasteful or useless' I have to disagree here.

    When combined appropriately, compounds and isolations can benefit an individual quite well.

    I think both arguments and reasoning can be correct here. Obviously you wouldn't want to perform an entire routine of isolation movements as this will really limit the ability of the individual to gain strength and over-all size, however compound movements, together with a few 'accessory/isolation' movements can be quite effective.

    I think it's also quite goal dependent as-well. For raw strength and power, compound movements would ideally want to make up most if not all of the work to be performed. You cannot really gain much strength and power with a cable cross-over as opposed to a bench press.
    For muscle growth and complete hypertrophy, again compound movements will need to be the bread and butter, the cornerstone completely. However, isolation movements to further isolate a muscle group will still be necessary, in my opinion.

    For example, if the calves are a real weak point for someone who is trying to gain mass, you will want to specifically isolate that muscle group and work it to it's absolute potential along-side the compound movements, of course. Bringing up a specific muscle group, such as the calves, may not be completely brought up with squats and dead-lifts alone - therefore isolating this muscle group will be necessary in this example.
    Consistency is the key

  18. #18
    VENI VIDI VICI Gabro's Avatar
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    Agreed with that, compounds and insolation have a place, that routine that OP posted has compounds, I still will make changes like remplace the first back exercise for yates rows (i could say regular bb rows), etc. But its simple not true for me that he need to disregard all the insolation exercises
    I do not count reps, I make every rep count !!

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    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabro View Post
    if someone is doing 6 heavy sets+24 light sets = total 30 sets its stupid. With 9-12 working sets you're ready to bed.

    nothing wrong in 4 sets of 200lbs bench press, 3 sets of 70lbs db bench, and 3 sets of flyes with a 30 db, dips.

    50lbs gain, I dont know, you coulb be underweight before or fat now, i dont care really, good for you 50+always, just saying that I will not believe you that leg press, lateral raises, etc are a waste unless you post a pictures of your massive physique and tell me that you dont do any of that exercises.
    Okay if you looked at my training log, you can see me doing atlas stones (without stones ahha) with 75kg of weights from the floor. I weight around 205-210lbs depending on the time of day, I started off weighing in at 154lbs, I am 5"11.

    http://www.muscleandstrength.com/for...tml#post773429

    I made most of my gains when I stopped doing exercises I said were useless, and focused on the main lifts and pressing heavy multiple times a week. The "smallest" exercise I do is probably chinups.

    According to the workout he posted, he has 12 sets of pressing, though its light pressing and is not the best exercise choice either, followed by 16 sets of little light lifts. How is that any good for you? Compare that with 12 odd sets of heavy pressing a week, and that be the only upper body work the trainee does.
    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

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  20. #20
    VENI VIDI VICI Gabro's Avatar
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    First i want tto clear that i dont have any problem with you spartagus.

    But talks about the routine he posted, 5days split intermediate level (http://www.muscleandstrength.com/wor...n-routine.html)
    Thats 14 sets for chest, maybe I wouldn't do that routine, probably if I start it I will make some changes acording to my body respond like drop flyes and decline, and add 2 extra sets in cable crossover and add 1 extra set in incline db press.

    Did you notice that OP's goal is sex appeal? meaning big and cut, attractive, built muscles.

    I hold my point, leg press, lateral raises, rear delt flyes, leg extension, concentrate curl... can be great exercises in every routine + bb/db press, bb/db shoulder press, bb/yates rows, squat.

    You can just do your 4-8 sets of bench press and be doneor 9 sets during the week (i'm speculating), but other will do 4 sets of bench press, 3 sets of incline db press and finish with 4 sets of cable crossovers or dips or flyes, nothing wrong with that from my point of view
    I do not count reps, I make every rep count !!

    175cm/75kg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartigus View Post
    Because these are exercises that are a waste of your time

    Dumbbell Curl 3 15, 12, 10
    Concentration Curl 3 15, 12, 10
    Lying Tricep Extension 4 15, 12, 10, 10
    Rope Pushdown 3 15, 12, 10
    Dumbbell Extension 3 15, 12, 10
    Leg Press 3 15, 12, 10
    Leg Extension 3 20, 15, 12
    Leg Curl 4 20, 15, 12, 10
    Seated Calf Raise 3 15, 12, 10
    Decline Dumbbell Press 3 15, 12, 10
    Cable Crossovers 2 12
    Incline Flys 2 12
    Smith Machine Barbell Row 4 15, 12, 10, 10
    Wide Grip Pulldown 3 15, 12, 10
    Side Lateral Raises 3 15, 12, 10
    Dumbbell Rear Delt Fly 3 15, 12, 10
    Dumbbell Shrugs


    Also terrible rep range and bad focus on progression.
    A "waste of your time" is a bit much. I wouldn't go that far... lol

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    M&S Elite Member Kristian's Avatar
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    Good debate. My two cents. If your goal is pure strength then those exercises are all a waste of time. Also if your goal is to get huge you can also get away without doing them. However if your after size but want proportion and symmetry some of them are needed. For example the last 3 exercises Spartigus listed would lead to more well rounded shoulders than pressing overhead twice a week would. Whereas you might get bigger shoulders from simply pressing twice a week but they might not be as proportionate.
    Always put in 110% in everything you do so that when someone else shows up with 100%, you still got 10% on them.-Chidi Ekebere

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    Seasoned M&S Veteran Spartigus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabro View Post
    First i want tto clear that i dont have any problem with you spartagus.

    But talks about the routine he posted, 5days split intermediate level (http://www.muscleandstrength.com/wor...n-routine.html)
    Thats 14 sets for chest, maybe I wouldn't do that routine, probably if I start it I will make some changes acording to my body respond like drop flyes and decline, and add 2 extra sets in cable crossover and add 1 extra set in incline db press.

    Did you notice that OP's goal is sex appeal? meaning big and cut, attractive, built muscles.

    I hold my point, leg press, lateral raises, rear delt flyes, leg extension, concentrate curl... can be great exercises in every routine + bb/db press, bb/db shoulder press, bb/yates rows, squat.

    You can just do your 4-8 sets of bench press and be doneor 9 sets during the week (i'm speculating), but other will do 4 sets of bench press, 3 sets of incline db press and finish with 4 sets of cable crossovers or dips or flyes, nothing wrong with that from my point of view
    I dont understand how you can say "a routine must be made mainly of compounds" and advocate that routine which is like 45%-50% compound moves.

    Sure it may be 14 sets for chest, but who said thats the ideal amount? Whats the point of doing cable crossovers if your bench is sub 300lbs?

    3x10 at 30lbs for cable crossovers is what 900lbs of volume? Thats nothing. Maybe if his bench was lets say 170lbs, and he did lets say 4x8 on the bench, that would be 4080lbs of volume, thats more like it. How will doing 900lbs in 10 minutes be of any benefit to a trainee if he is a relative novice.

    If he wants sex appeal (muscle and cuts), he needs to be big (therefore strong) and then diet down. Cable crossovers and lateral raises dont make you strong or balanced.

    How will doing a strong of light isolation moves do any good for the trainee? I see people in my gym doing routines like the one listed here, needless to say they are neither big nor strong not have sex appeal.

    So what if you have good front delts and a cut chest, your still skinny and weak, nothing attractive about that..... Should of spent your 10-14 sets a week pressing instead of wasting it doing tiny movements.
    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

    "When in doubt, just get really, really strong. It tends to cure most problems in training and life." - Wendler

  24. #24
    VENI VIDI VICI Gabro's Avatar
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    Well just show me that strong and balanced physique that you built in those 5 years without insolation movements and shut me up. You can say all the things you want against insolation and OP can listen if he wants, but I will still promote lateral, rear delt, leg press, etc for someone who has been lifting for 1-2 years
    I do not count reps, I make every rep count !!

    175cm/75kg

  25. #25
    Coming Up The Ranks
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    I'm paying close attention to the points made. Pretty good stuff. I'm learning

    As Gabro mentioned, I'm after sex appeal. So strength isn't such a biggie for me. Ultimately my target is the 11% bf with decent amount of muscles to show. If strength is the best way to achieve my goal, then thats where I'll be focusing. Whatever routine proves to be the best is where my focus will be. When achieved 11% i'm not liking the amount of muscles, thats when I'll bulk.
    H: 170cm | W: 72kg | BF: ~15.5%

 

 

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