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  1. #1
    M&S Content Manager Steve's Avatar
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    Default Fullbody Workout Q&A plus Resources

    This thread contains resources on Muscle & Strength related to fullbody workouts.

    It is also a thread for Q&A...If you have a question post it up. Either myself (Steve), Glwanabe or Carl1174 will respond.

    Note: This is not a debate thread. If you do not believe in the validity of fullbody training, and are looking to debate, please start a new thread. We would be happy to debate, just not here.

    WORKOUTS

    --How to Get a Classic Physique: A Steve Reeves-style workout.
    --Forget Steroids - 5 Full Body Workouts For Serious Gains
    --Rippetoe Wichita Falls Novice Program
    --Reg Park Beginner Workout
    --2 Day Simple A/B Split by Steve
    --Dumbbell Only Home Or Gym Full Body Workout
    --Beginner Full Body Workout
    --Bill Starr 5x5 Linear Version for Intermediate Lifters
    --How to get a 'Classic Physique' Part 2 *NEW!

    INTERVIEW

    Note: Casey Butt is one of the primary modern proponents of full body workouts. If you are seriously considering full body training, it is well worth your time to read the following interviews:

    --Casey Butt interview, Part 1 (Natural muscular potential and full body routines.)
    --Casey Butt interview, Part 2 (Exercise selection, bulking, and protein consumption.)
    --Casey Butt interview, Part 3 (Hardgainers, the supplement industry, and the importance of training for strength.)
    Last edited by Steve; 03-22-2011 at 10:52 AM.
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  2. #2
    Muscle Hobbit carl1174's Avatar
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    AWESOME Steve... fantastic to get it all in one place.... Should be a sticky for sure

    Carl.
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  3. #3
    M&S Power User Henry19's Avatar
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    Good stuff. How bout we give some love to Bill Starr too.
    http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Starr_5x5
    Progression over regression

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  4. #4
    The Beardless One
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    Nice! Glad to see this up!

  5. #5
    M&S Content Manager Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry19 View Post
    Good stuff. How bout we give some love to Bill Starr too.
    http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Starr_5x5
    I will add some Starr programs to the site soon.

    And for those curious, fullbody workouts come in many shapes and sizes. Starr and Rippetoe are strength-focused, but also good for size. Many of the workouts posted in this thread focus on muscle building.
    Last edited by Steve; 01-30-2011 at 10:35 AM.
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    Muscle Hobbit carl1174's Avatar
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    Yeh there are plenty of other ways to tain full body too, obviously strength from Starr and Rippetoe, muscle building from Reeves inspired routines, but also Park and Eder inspired routines. Remember most of the old time 'golden age' lifters used full body routines and they were all pre-steroid too, so its definitely a great way for a natural trainee to work and build excellent strenght and size

    I am sure Steve and Glwanabe will have loads of info to put on here, and if there are any questions just ask

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  7. #7
    E-Cowboy 2cents madjinx's Avatar
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    Ive been heavily interested in the Rippetoe routine.

    Working out at home I lack the ability to do pullups and chinups. What exercises can be used to replace these, if any? I have a bench+bar, plenty of plates, dumbbells up to 65lbs.

    Also, is this program still a solid choice for an intermediate lifter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post

    And for those curious, fullbody workouts come in many shapes and sizes.

    This a great point Steve.

    Most people never work a basic fullbody program long enough to evolve beyond a basic program. Work a basic program long enough to adapt properly to the workload, and you can take advantage of what an intermediate or for the rare few, and advanced program can offer.

    Fullbody is very flexible. By paying careful attention to the individual movements, as well as how you progress through the session you drastically alter how a program feels.

    A big issue I see with some people's idea of a fullbody workout is that they approach it from the mentality of split training. They basically build a split type program done over the course of a week. They try to build in movements to hit every muscle from multiple angles, while having too much volume for several of the major groups.

    You need to be a bit of a student of fullbody work and change your thinking about how a program is put together. Don't write your own program and try fullbody until you have worked a good fullbody program. You need to learn what it feels like to work through several weeks of sessions, and how your body reacts to the training. Some aspects are subtle, while others are more dramatic.

    More volume is not the answer with fullbody. More intensity is what you are aiming to achieve.

  9. #9
    Yoke is the new Biceps BigJosh's Avatar
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    The article "Forget Steroid- 5 Full Body Workouts For Serious Gains" is awesome. Pure Gold, if you will.
    Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
    Great thread idea Steve.
    "One of the worst things a young lifter can do is take advice from other beginners on message boards Ė they usually have all the advice and none of the experience."
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    Muscle Hobbit carl1174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madjinx View Post
    Ive been heavily interested in the Rippetoe routine.

    Working out at home I lack the ability to do pullups and chinups. What exercises can be used to replace these, if any? I have a bench+bar, plenty of plates, dumbbells up to 65lbs.

    ## Ill let someone else step in there mate, im not as familiar with the strength based ones as i am the muscle building, however i think you could make a start on the rippetoe workout without the pulls and chins to start, just concentrating on the other moves for the time being.
    Do you mean you have nowhere to do the moves or you physically cant do the movement ??


    Also, is this program still a solid choice for an intermediate lifter?

    ## A lot of people will say its down to the weights you are lifting at the minute, but IMO I dont see why you COULDNT do it it as an intermediate lifter, especially if you havent worked a strength or full body approach before. Any routine that focusses on progression and helps you get the big lift up in weight has got to be good
    hope this helps

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  11. #11
    Yoke is the new Biceps BigJosh's Avatar
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    Hey Steve, what do you think about maybe adding a Madcow Intermediate 5x5 write up to the site?
    "One of the worst things a young lifter can do is take advice from other beginners on message boards Ė they usually have all the advice and none of the experience."
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    Muscle Hobbit carl1174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJosh View Post
    Hey Steve, what do you think about maybe adding a Madcow Intermediate 5x5 write up to the site?
    great idea... Is that the same as the texas method, that could be a good addition too

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    Yoke is the new Biceps BigJosh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl1174 View Post
    great idea... Is that the same as the texas method, that could be a good addition too

    Carl.
    I've never actually ran the texas method, so I couldn't actually compare them. I think on paper they are similar, although it's been a while since I've read Practical Programming, so I can't remember for sure. Here is an awesome write up of the Madcow 5x5:
    http://madcow.hostzi.com/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

    This is the write up I used when I ran the program. It has a ton of good info. Even if you aren't using the program, the percentages for ramping weights and weekly progression are great.

    p.s. Steve, if it is inappropriate for me to have posted this link please let me know or remove it. I'm not trying to step on any toes in your thread.
    "One of the worst things a young lifter can do is take advice from other beginners on message boards Ė they usually have all the advice and none of the experience."
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  14. #14
    Muscle Hobbit carl1174's Avatar
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    heres a link to the texas method so people can compare. It looks really good though...http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/The_Texas_Method

    Carl.
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  15. #15
    M&S Content Manager Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post

    A big issue I see with some people's idea of a fullbody workout is that they approach it from the mentality of split training. They basically build a split type program done over the course of a week. They try to build in movements to hit every muscle from multiple angles, while having too much volume for several of the major groups.
    One of the issues I have with split training is that because of its nature, meaning that workouts are divided into bodyparts, compound lifts must be pieced together into nice little compartments so they fit.

    Though this is rarely an issue for a semi-seasoned lifter, it creates a lot of confusion for beginners because they are trained to view everything through the lens of bodyparts rather than as individuals movements.

    So when they look at fullbody workouts, the workouts are hard to make sense of because they are viewing it though the lens of "this lift is associated with this bodypart."

    Another issue with split training, and again this is not a broad condemnation but rather an observation about the consequences of sorting compound lifts by bodypart, is that many will try to turn a compound lift into more of an isolation lift for a certain bodypart.

    Bench press, for example, in a split context is seen as a chest lift. Often times the form is tweaked, or training techniques are implemented to try and turn the bench press into more of an isolation lift for chest.

    I am not a big fan of this approach. Compound lifts should be performed naturally, in my opinion; using the best form possible. But that is a topic for another thread.

    In fullbody training, you do not view lifts through the lens of bodyparts. You view them in their totality.

    Often times I will hear..."where is the direct tricep work? This fullbody will make my arms shrink!" But if you look closely at most fullbody workouts, there are often 6-10 working sets per day (including ramped 5x5 programs, etc.) that involve triceps.

    You will also hear..."There is not enough quad work! I need leg extensions or leg press..." But if you look closely, there are 6-12 sets of squats per week. Brutal!

    Take home point: Do not try to view fullbody workouts through the lens of bodyparts. View the compound lifts as they are, perform them as they were meant to be performed, and do not try to turn them into isolation lifts by tweaking form, or by adding endless advanced training techniques meant to "better isolate" a muscle group.
    Last edited by Steve; 01-30-2011 at 03:04 PM.
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    Muscle Hobbit carl1174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post

    In fullbody training, you do not view lifts through the lens of bodyparts. You view them in their totality.

    Often times I will hear..."where is the direct tricep work? This fullbody will make my arms shrink!" But if you look closely at most fullbody workouts, there are often 6-10 working sets per day (including ramped 5x5 programs, etc.) that involve triceps.

    You will also hear..."There is not enough quad work! I need leg extensions or leg press..." But if you look closely, there are 6-12 sets of squats per week. Brutal!

    Take home point: Do not try to view fullbody workouts through the lens of bodyparts. View the compound lifts as they are, perform them as they were meant to be performed, and do not try to turn them into isolation lifts by tweaking form, or by adding endless advanced training techniques meant to "better isolate" a muscle group.
    On this point of volume on the body parts I posted this in the other thread but though it might be good to put it in here too..

    For anyone else thinking the volume isnt enough, or that they need to add this move here, or that move there I have broken it down here for you

    Legs
    Legs get hit pretty hard with the back squats... 3 sets per day on the Quads, Gluteís and (providing you are going deep) Hams, 3 times per week thatís 9 sets for each of the above body parts, not forgetting we are hitting the calves for 3 sets, 3 times per week. 9 sets in total for the calves (you will never have chicken legs again) 36 sets typical bodypart split equivalent for legs.

    Back
    Gets hit with 3 sets twice a week and then 3 sets of deadís once a week), again thatís 9 sets for the back, plus pull-ups can be added to two of the days with the Rows giving you 13 sets for the back... not forgetting the deadliftís hit almost every muscle in the body (especially the traps, so thatís 3 sets for the traps too).

    Shoulders
    Again 3 sets 3 times per week, that 9 sets directly hitting the shoulders (BTNP or dumbbells as far back as is comfortable) are recommended as they hit the whole of the shoulder, where as a standard Barbell military press primarily places the stress on the Anterior delt. They also get hit hard with the Bench pressing for a further 9 sets and with the dips for a further 15 sets per week. Thatís 33 sets either directly or indirectly hitting the delts. Didnít you always say you wanted coconut shoulders

    Chest
    Standard 3 sets per day Bench press here, gives 9 sets again for the chest, but we also do 5 sets per day of dips which hit the chest nicely (as long as you are leaning in to the movement), thatís a further 15 sets. A total of 24 sets for the chest !!!

    Arms
    Hah the all important Ďgunzí. Biceps get hit directly for 3 sets per day, thats 9 sets for the Biís but again indirectly for another 13 sets with the Back. A total of 22 setís for the biís. Triceps get hit for 5 sets per day with the dips that 15 sets per week, plus assisting with the chest and shoulder presses too, thats another 18 sets. So a total of 33 setís for the triís, directly and indirectly. Thatís 55 sets for the arms.

    Abs
    The 6 pack most people want is just a diet and a fullbody routine away. Not only are the abs getting hit for 9 sets directly, but because most of the movements are the big compound movements then the core is getting a hammering as well with over 50 sets altogether.

    And remember this is the 'beginner' program, once you start adding in extra in the transition to intermediate these numbers will go up even more...

    If you want to really work your body as a UNIT, hit all the muscles with enough sets to make them grow, but not have to worry about this part this day and the days work overlapping with the next. Stressing if you miss a day as you done know when you can fit it in again, without messing up your entire schedule. Then I vote for full body.

    Hope ths helps

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  17. #17
    Regular Poster ben8jam's Avatar
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    I've been running your Intermediate Full body for a couple months now... and i really liked the change from Doug's split - mostly because I was new to lifting and found full body really left me feeling wiped out - where split's didnt (mostly b/c i couldn't do the intensity required out of a split) -

    now, however, i am wondering if i should switch back again... it's so hard to understand your body in the beginning.... I just want to be doing more! only in gym 3 days a week i feel like there is so much time sitting around....

    i might start adding cardio in on off days, like stair running or something intense... but not sure if that will kill gains...
    Check out my Reeve's Classic Training Log:
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben8jam View Post
    I've been running your Intermediate Full body for a couple months now... and i really liked the change from Doug's split - mostly because I was new to lifting and found full body really left me feeling wiped out - where split's didnt (mostly b/c i couldn't do the intensity required out of a split) -

    now, however, i am wondering if i should switch back again... it's so hard to understand your body in the beginning.... I just want to be doing more! only in gym 3 days a week i feel like there is so much time sitting around....

    i might start adding cardio in on off days, like stair running or something intense... but not sure if that will kill gains...

    Which intermediate program are you referring to? I only posted the Reeves intermediate online in Mid December.

    If you are using the intermediate you would be better off working the basic program, and working hard on building with the basic moves. You will also have a better understanding of whats happening by working with fewer movements as you learn how your body responds.

    Working more volume is not the answer! Working harder with better intensity, (weight) is. Working three days a week with the proper intensity should be more than enough, and you should looking forward to the days off of rest. You don't grow when your in the gym. You grow when your resting, and your body is recovering.

  19. #19
    Regular Poster ben8jam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glwanabe View Post
    Which intermediate program are you referring to? I only posted the Reeves intermediate online in Mid December.
    sorry, "yours" as in Steve's

    http://www.muscleandstrength.com/art...s-gains.html#6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben8jam View Post
    Thats a good program, but as it says, it is an intermediate program, and you are a beginner.

    A good basic compound movement program made for a beginner is where you want to start.

    Go take a look at Carls log, and notice from when he starts the Reeves classic program. Start at page 295, and read forward through up to todays session.

    http://www.muscleandstrength.com/for...ideal-314.html

    Carl is an an actual intermediate level lifter, who has been using a fullbody program, and is working hard on getting his body adapted to the stress. He was lifting weights much higher than what he currently is capable of lifting due to the way the program is set up.

    Notice especially the sessions where he has added a little extra work, and how it effects his performance.

    If you are using an intermediate level routine and are not feeling like your working hard enough, it is because your not. Your not ready for the volume or to properly put the amount of intensity into it to make optimal results.

    You can make results, but not optimal. Working harder on a simpler plan will benefit you more.
    Last edited by glwanabe; 01-30-2011 at 05:18 PM.

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    Regular Poster ben8jam's Avatar
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    thanks, that's a hell of a thread....

    btw, i def feel exhausted by end of Steve's workout - i just was curious if i should switch back to split and work on intensity... i do like the full body thing - i just sometimes feel like i'm not hitting, say, my chest, as hard as i could with just the one set..

    so it'd be best to focus on repeating the same excercises each session? that routine isn't that far diff from Steve's, except just doing same thing over and over..?
    Check out my Reeve's Classic Training Log:
    muscleandstrength.com/forum/member-training-journals/53981-bens-full-body-reeves-classic-bulk-cut-log.html

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    M&S Content Manager Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJosh View Post
    Hey Steve, what do you think about maybe adding a Madcow Intermediate 5x5 write up to the site?
    On the to do list.

    I have just about all of these programs on my computer, and as time allows they will be added.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben8jam View Post
    thanks, that's a hell of a thread....

    btw, i def feel exhausted by end of Steve's workout - i just was curious if i should switch back to split and work on intensity... i do like the full body thing - i just sometimes feel like i'm not hitting, say, my chest, as hard as i could with just the one set..

    so it'd be best to focus on repeating the same excercises each session? that routine isn't that far diff from Steve's, except just doing same thing over and over..?
    Do you have a log here, or do you keep a log of your workouts?

  24. #24
    M&S Content Manager Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben8jam View Post
    I've been running your Intermediate Full body for a couple months now... and i really liked the change from Doug's split - mostly because I was new to lifting and found full body really left me feeling wiped out - where split's didnt (mostly b/c i couldn't do the intensity required out of a split) -

    now, however, i am wondering if i should switch back again... it's so hard to understand your body in the beginning.... I just want to be doing more! only in gym 3 days a week i feel like there is so much time sitting around....

    i might start adding cardio in on off days, like stair running or something intense... but not sure if that will kill gains...
    Well, gains aren't limited by training 3 days per week. They will be limited more by not focusing on progression. Cardio on off days won't limit gains if your diet is in check.

    I understand the desire to train more. I like working out. One thing to remember is that doing more generally isn't beneficial to gains. So, if you do want to do more, do cardio on your off days. Or go for a walk, learn a martial art, take up kettlebells, etc.

    If you do go the way of a 4 day split, I would seriously consider sticking with an upper lower.

    I don't like to swing anyone in one direction or the other. Each of us has to decide their own path. I will say this...even training 2 days per week can be beneficial. One of the greatest natural trainers that ever lived, John Christy, used a 2 day split...and he trained thousands of people successfully.

    Train so hard on your training days that you need a day off
    Big & Strong = Heavy Compounds + Progression + Food

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    Regular Poster ben8jam's Avatar
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    I keep a personal log... I've been working at home, doing general lifts the past few weeks after taking a break b/c of birth of my daughter, so this is last weeks data, after starting routine back up again:

    it's not a lot of weight, but i feel like i'm working hard (btw, the "pain" next to deadlifts was sharp shooting pain in lower back.. i shall be backing off on weight on them for now...)

    edit: just realized that first day's data is totally wrong... i don't even know what i put in there..//? so ignore all that

    Last edited by ben8jam; 01-30-2011 at 06:16 PM.
    Check out my Reeve's Classic Training Log:
    muscleandstrength.com/forum/member-training-journals/53981-bens-full-body-reeves-classic-bulk-cut-log.html

    My Supplements: Fish Oil, Multi-Vite, Whey, Dextrose, Maltrodextrin, XTEND, and Jack3D (occasionally)

 

 

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