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  1. #26
    Regular Poster diomedes's Avatar
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    It's not more "bang for your buck," it's lazy. Strength training may burn calories, but they are not fat calories. Strength training utilizes a metabolic pathway called glycolosis, and because it is primarily anaerobic, burns little or no fat. LIT cardio utilizes a different part of the Krebbs cycle called lipolysis. Because you have to have oxygen present for lipolysis to occur, you are not going to efficiently burn fat doing strength training alone. That article is an isolated document that points out how thirty minutes of LIT is not a good way to burn fat. As I have already pointed out, studies agree that 45-60 minutes daily is needed to efficiently accomplish fat loss. So, "bottom-line" is that if you want the million dollar body, you need to invest more than a ninety-nine cent routine. Your results will reflect the amount of effort you put into your workouts, and strength training alone is not enough of an investment to seriously drop body fat. -EK

    I'm currently reading something that is quite serious about cardio about part of the fat loss routine. I have not yet finished reading it yet, but just out of curiosity, really to compare perspectives and strategies, what part should cardio play in a fat loss system?

    How many times a week, concurrent with weight training and a lean diet in the -500 cal range?

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    If I'm cutting I do it six days per week minimum. -EK

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    Quote Originally Posted by EKnight View Post
    It's not more "bang for your buck," it's lazy. Strength training may burn calories, but they are not fat calories. Strength training utilizes a metabolic pathway called glycolosis, and because it is primarily anaerobic, burns little or no fat. LIT cardio utilizes a different part of the Krebbs cycle called lipolysis. Because you have to have oxygen present for lipolysis to occur, you are not going to efficiently burn fat doing strength training alone. That article is an isolated document that points out how thirty minutes of LIT is not a good way to burn fat. As I have already pointed out, studies agree that 45-60 minutes daily is needed to efficiently accomplish fat loss. So, "bottom-line" is that if you want the million dollar body, you need to invest more than a ninety-nine cent routine. Your results will reflect the amount of effort you put into your workouts, and strength training alone is not enough of an investment to seriously drop body fat. -EK
    Couldn't you people just say that its not the most efficient way to drop body fat, instead of sending empty put-downs over the internet? Calling someone lazy because they believed that strength training was better? You could of just told me that was incorrect. Thank you for the information, and you've changed my mind on the cardio as I didn't know all of that. But feel free to drop the attitude...

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    A 200 lb person running a 13 minute mile (a 13 min mile is being very generous for a 200 lb person with a high body fat percentage) will burn 11 calories per minute (0.055 x weight in pounds). 45 minutes non-stop is required to burn 500 kcal.

    A 200 lb person doing kettlebell swings will burn 31.8 calories per minute (0.159 x weight in pounds). 15 minutes non-stop is required to burn 500 kcal. On top of that, it works every muscle group in your body simultaneously with weight resistance.


    Now, I'm off to swing my bell. I'll already be finished with my shower when you're (hypothetical person) half-way through with your run. Have fun ;-)

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    So my weight training is about 90 mins, and i dont want to overtrain (to some experts i've already overtraining) . So if i do the cardio, hour will come up. What are your suggestions for this situation. I'm trying to gain a little more mass now, and i'm eating and heavy training, but in a month time i'm going to start to tone and burn fat. At that time should i train 4 days weights and other 2 only cardio?

  6. #31
    Watchin what yer doin! tadolfi's Avatar
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    WOW! Interesting thread.

    I see all sides of this and I would not even begin to try to explain anything differently - well done everyone!

    As for my personal opinion...
    Cardio is just a word that can conjure up images of running, stepping, rowing or even cycling on a piece of equipment that stays in one spot. In that sense it may only be exercise for the heart and lungs.

    If we use the words "physical activity" it paints a much larger picture of what is needed to drop the fat or loose the weight.

    Increase physical activity while dropping calories down a little and you will loose. The tools used to increase physical activity may include swimming, biking, whole body training, CARDIO, playing tag, chasing cars, running from your significant other and so on.
    (Just making sure you're reading this)

    Basically - just get off your butt and do more than you've been doing while eating less....if you don't wanna get off your butt - then that's lazy.
    If you're doing something and want to accelerate the progress - than that can be cardio.
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  7. #32
    Kettlebells' Angel !!!! 5kgLifter's Avatar
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    To a degree, and I'm just throwing this into the mix for discussion, wouldn't 15 mins of continuous kettlebell work (or other weights, with no rest) constitute cardio anyway? At least to some degree? So, therefore cardio is incorporated by default into workouts where a weight is being continually lifted without rest for a period of time, as opposed to the lift and rest after 5 reps scenario, for example.
    1-Finger Deadlift, 1RM: 80.3lbs/36.5kg

  8. #33
    Seasoned M&S Veteran darshan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dyermaker View Post
    A 200 lb person running a 13 minute mile (a 13 min mile is being very generous for a 200 lb person with a high body fat percentage) will burn 11 calories per minute (0.055 x weight in pounds). 45 minutes non-stop is required to burn 500 kcal.

    A 200 lb person doing kettlebell swings will burn 31.8 calories per minute (0.159 x weight in pounds). 15 minutes non-stop is required to burn 500 kcal. On top of that, it works every muscle group in your body simultaneously with weight resistance.


    Now, I'm off to swing my bell. I'll already be finished with my shower when you're (hypothetical person) half-way through with your run. Have fun ;-)
    I think you picked pretty unrealistic comparisons for both activities.

    Does anyone run 13 minute / mile for 45 minutes straight, and weight trains on their other days? Thats like 4 miles ...

    Does anyone swing a kettle bell (assuming standard 16 kg) for 15 minute non stop, without a work and rest interval? How many swings a minute are we talking about?

    I would say if you are able to do both, at 200 lb, you are in pretty good shape.

    It's like saying the "Tabata Protocol" is the most efficient fat loss protocol, because it burns the most in 4 minutes.

    Maybe I missed something here.
    Last edited by darshan; 12-15-2009 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dyermaker View Post
    Couldn't you people just say that its not the most efficient way to drop body fat, instead of sending empty put-downs over the internet? Calling someone lazy because they believed that strength training was better? You could of just told me that was incorrect. Thank you for the information, and you've changed my mind on the cardio as I didn't know all of that. But feel free to drop the attitude...
    Therewere no empty put downs there. You had three pages of people advisng you to do cardio, and you wanted to listen to one article that had already been debunked. I didn'tcall you laz- I said the article was perfect fuel for lazy people who didn't want to do cardio, and I said that if you intend to do strengt training alone for body fat loss, then that's lazy. I did tell you that was incorrect, and you continued to argue with me (and the generaal consensus) about it. Don't be upset now if you dn't ike how I presented the facts. If you would've invested more in the advice you were given the first time, it wouldn't have come t you the second time as harshly. -EK

  10. #35
    Regular Poster diomedes's Avatar
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    EKnight (or anyone with substantial experience in training, Doug maybe?), what's your opinion on the general consensus that cardio oriented work can "technically" reduce muscle. I put emphasis on technically, because the though frightens people, but generally speaking, you'll only lose alot of muscle if your doing excessive marathon-type cardio work. Also, I think if you do very heavy weight training and don't undereat ( don't go below the 500 defecit) and eat an adequate amount of protein. What's your experience on that?

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    Two things here:
    1. The OP's comparison of cardio vs. kettleball training is not apples to apples. At 60-70% of your maximum HR calories burned break down into the following: 85% fat, 5% protein, and 10% carbohydrate. Kettleball training (or ANY anaerobic conditioning) burns 85% carbohydrates, 15% fat and less than 1% protein. So, the 45 minute LIT yields 425 calories from fat, whereas the kettleball-ing burns only a measly 75 fat calories. In other words, you would need to kettleball train continuously for 100 minutes to get the same fat burning results. Who's in the shower first now?
    2. Using these figures, you can see the fat-loss and muscle sparing benefits of LIT cardio.

    Source: Chad Tackett, Global Health and Fitness, 1998.

  12. #37
    M&S Power User cameren06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EKnight View Post
    Two things here:
    1. The OP's comparison of cardio vs. kettleball training is not apples to apples. At 60-70% of your maximum HR calories burned break down into the following: 85% fat, 5% protein, and 10% carbohydrate. Kettleball training (or ANY anaerobic conditioning) burns 85% carbohydrates, 15% fat and less than 1% protein. So, the 45 minute LIT yields 425 calories from fat, whereas the kettleball-ing burns only a measly 75 fat calories. In other words, you would need to kettleball train continuously for 100 minutes to get the same fat burning results. Who's in the shower first now?
    2. Using these figures, you can see the fat-loss and muscle sparing benefits of LIT cardio.

    Source: Chad Tackett, Global Health and Fitness, 1998.
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  13. #38
    M&S Elite Member Cardiochris's Avatar
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    Well ya just gotta get him ****ed, these dayz, to start spillin the beans like that. LOL

    and get the good read
    When it's all over said and done, you're gonna regret the things you 'didn't do', more than the things you did.
    (I think that was Mark Twain)

  14. #39
    Cuttin' N Struttin' Gunner82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameren06 View Post
    I'm so glad your back posting I like reading your posts.
    X2

  15. #40
    M&S Power User ssslayer's Avatar
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    Dyermaker.

    Do you by any chance mean to imply that human body can output greater work by lifting heavy?

    IS it???

    I had written on some other thread also: Human body is designed for stamina, not strength. Infact in the whole animal kingdom its the stamina that increases your chances of survival not the strength.

    What relevance does this have here?
    The relevance is that our muscles can work on light loads for a very long period of time. We can burn more calories by doing light sustained work.

    We cannot do the same for heavy loads.

    A very simple fact would be to check how much work you can do in 10 minutes for a 5rep squat.
    Compared to how much work you can do in 10 minutes for a bodyweight squat.

    very roughly the energy expended = Work = distance barbell moved (usually shoulder height to little below butts level) * (body weight+barbell weight) * reps

    In this 10 min period - you are supposed to include the resting time also.


    Do some figures, and you will understand why our hearts start racing, and breath goes into tizzy while doing cardio.



    EKnight:
    just a slight question, do you mean to say that when we do extreme physical activities that demand more energy from carbs than fats, we do not burn fat?
    In my experience, for that instant (expending energy) probably you are right, but over a period of time - say a week or month, the fat deposits do come down somehow. Its a personal experience.

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    Didn't say we don't burn fat, only that it is minimal. Your results may have come from any number of things, but basic human biology is that without oxygen we can not burn fat, thus the term oxidation. -EK

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    But well, what about the caloric deficit over a period of time?
    But the workout is heavier variety - the one that burns more carbs than fat.

    What will happen in this case?
    Ultimately something gonna get burnt, somehow - and its not muscles that I have experienced. And since the definition improved, I assume it has to be fat which got burnt.

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    Wink

    FIRST of all you not only do cardio for fat burn, it is also for your cardiovasculer health, many of us seem to forget that. AND secondly talk to any NATURAL bodybuilder ( unless they are a pure mesomorph) for weeks before a competition how much cardio they do, and they would say as much as they can, maybe even twice a day.I do believe that cardio done in the proper fashion, is needed to burn fat, because it is better to burn the fat then starve the fat.

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    I'm convinced, LIT definitely seems like something I need to incorporate for maximum fat burning. Thanks for all the great info

  20. #45
    M&S Elite Member Cardiochris's Avatar
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    And now you've met Eric. That's about the nicest I've seen him argue with someone, I think he likes you.
    When it's all over said and done, you're gonna regret the things you 'didn't do', more than the things you did.
    (I think that was Mark Twain)

  21. #46
    Seasoned M&S Veteran DannyT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dyermaker View Post
    Now, I'm off to swing my bell. I'll already be finished with my shower when you're (hypothetical person) half-way through with your run. Have fun ;-)
    Lol thats just ignorant. You come here to ask for opinions and answers. You got your answer and still go through with what you first did. Why did you even bother asking?

    Quote Originally Posted by demiurgos View Post
    So my weight training is about 90 mins, and i dont want to overtrain (to some experts i've already overtraining) . So if i do the cardio, hour will come up. What are your suggestions for this situation. I'm trying to gain a little more mass now, and i'm eating and heavy training, but in a month time i'm going to start to tone and burn fat. At that time should i train 4 days weights and other 2 only cardio?
    Keep your weight training to 60 minutes. After that cortisol levels rise for us naturals and lead to counter-productive results. You don't have to do cardio while bulking. If you do your just going to have to eat more to compensate for it.

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    She's kinda cute so I wanted to play nice. -EK

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    Seasoned M&S Veteran DannyT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EKnight View Post
    She's kinda cute so I wanted to play nice. -EK
    lol, i can't even see her pictures

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    I thought it was 1 kilos of fat equal to 4 calories burned and 1 kilos of muslce equal to 15 calories burned,

 

 

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