Testosterone.

[Torcida]

What is everyones opinion on ZMA and Tribulus and so on, I took a bottle of Tribulus and noticed no difference whatsoever, isn't the whole idea of gaining strength and growing based around testosterone, isn't steroids used as a replacement to the human testosterone because of its high level and thats why the growth is insane while on it ( and understandably when you get off it, your body has hardly any natural testosterone and estrogen levels may rise )


What is the best way to increase testosterone production or is this something genetic, I'm not buying the whole rest 8 hours, eat clean and don't drink **** because I know alot of guys at my gym who party atleast 3 to 5 times a week drink a ****load, hardly sleep, go to work then hit the gym and are still lifting a ****load and getting results, whats the deal?

I'd appreciate someones opinion who knows.

[Possum]

Lift weights --> Big compound movement, heavy weights.

Have lots of sex/tugs.

Treat everything as a competition.

Alcohol lowers testosterone.

[diomedes]

I can't tell you an awful lot about your testosterone supplements there, but i'll suggest you avoid imitating what other people are doing. I know it's not what you want to hear, but i'm pretty sure other members here might be repeating that statement. Maybe a couple of your buddies are mesomorphs and pack on muscle by simply touching a dumbbell.

Anyway, if you're serious about fitness goals you'll figure out works for you and make the changes when you decide to.

[Steve]

I have had good luck with certain testosterone supplements. They are generally best run for me in 2 week cycles.

[EKnight]

Recent studies have conclusively shown that trib and zma do not raise test levels as was once thought, so your results are not surprising. Best advice- eat right, train right, rest right. -EK

[Stafford]

Originally Posted by Torcida

What is everyones opinion on ZMA and Tribulus and so on, I took a bottle of Tribulus and noticed no difference whatsoever, isn't the whole idea of gaining strength and growing based around testosterone, isn't steroids used as a replacement to the human testosterone because of its high level and thats why the growth is insane while on it ( and understandably when you get off it, your body has hardly any natural testosterone and estrogen levels may rise )


What is the best way to increase testosterone production or is this something genetic, I'm not buying the whole rest 8 hours, eat clean and don't drink **** because I know alot of guys at my gym who party atleast 3 to 5 times a week drink a ****load, hardly sleep, go to work then hit the gym and are still lifting a ****load and getting results, whats the deal?

I'd appreciate someones opinion who knows.

I don't know how old you are.

But if you are a teen, like me, it won't help you. If you are young, your test levels are already high enough without it so you won't notice a difference

[tony1945]

if trib worked everyone would be huge but it is just a waste of money..lift heavy weights,eat big and get 8 hours sleep

[Steve]

With regards to studies, readers have to proceed with caution. One must look at the body of scientific work to gain a encompassing perspective. Any one of us could post a pet study or two for/against any product/supplement/training technique, and claim that this study proves a conclusion.

To be scientifically neutral, we must look at a body of clinical data. For tribulus - and for most test boosters - there is plenty of promising data that they work for some (not all). One must try a supplement like this to see if it is to their liking, or if it has benefit.

With all due respect to Eknight, each day I see a single study posted and someone eventually proclaims "issue resolved." With science, supplements and muscle building, one study's conclusion has become meaningless to me.

I would prefer a meta-analysis.

Testosterone products work differently for different individuals. I have lower testosterone - as I am older - so the benefit is more noticeable.

Relatively very little research on Tribulus has been done outside of Eastern Bloc countries, and the Far East. But a good portion of positive research does exist.

Some studies state "Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males." With low testosterone levels, I can definitely tell that tribulus works because sexual function noticeably improves. This is not a placebo. I can't will myself into morning wood.

Having one or two studies showing that trib does little in trainees is not a be all, end all period to its validity. The prohormone culture uses it in bulk during PCT. I can tell you this...if it had no impact for "all", they wouldn't be using it. It works better for some then others. That's why it's a good idea to use a blended product.

Here is some information to read and consider. There is quite a bit of positive research backing Trib. I encourage everyone to read the conclusions to each study. Personally, there are studies for and against every supplement in the known universe. Does that make all supplements useless? Of course not. This is faulty logic.

http://www.libilov.com/en/clinical_s..._studies_1.htm

Libilov and Tribulus terrestris Protodioscin Clinical Studies


Effect of Tribulus terrestris treatment on impotence and libido disorders
A.W. Nasution
Andalas University School of Medicine, Padang, Indonesia (1993)

This clinical trial suggests that even a short period of treatment with Tribulus extract is effective in treating libido disorders and impotence

Tribulus terrestris (protodioscin) increases men's sex drive
W. Pangkahila
University of Denpasar, Reproductive Medicine Faculty, Indonesia
Proceedings of the 10th National Congress on New Perspectives of Andrology on Human Reproduction (1993)
National Congress of Indonesian Association of Andrologs

We report that statistical analyses suggest significant improvement in sex drive in the majority of our trial constituents, without any evidence of adverse effects.

Tribulus terrestris (protodioscin) in the treatment of male infertility with idiopathic oligoasthenoteratozoospermia
A. Adimoelja, L. Setiawan, T. Djojotananjo
Academic Hospital Dr. Soetomo and Airlangga University, Surabaya, Indonesia
First International Conference of Medical Plants for Reproductive Medicine in Taipei, Taiwan (1995)

The clinical study described in this paper resulted in successful fertilization in 22% of subjects that took part as the treated group.

Effect of protodioscin on the quantity and quality of sperms from males with moderate idiopathic oligozoospermia
K.M. Arsyad
Medical Biology Division of Andrology, University of Sriwijaya, Indonesia (1996)
Medika 22(8): 614-618



Tribulus terrestris L. extract improves spermatozoa motility and increases the efficiency of acrosome reaction in patients diagnosed with oligoasthenoteratozoospermia
L. Setiawan
Airlangga University, Surabaya, Indonesia (1996)

2. Tribulus treatment increased spermatozoa acrosome reaction in these subjects.

3. Tribulus treatment increased the motility of slow and non-progressive spermatozoa, and decreased the proportion of immotile spermatozoa.

4. Tribulus treatment increased the frequency of sexual coitus

Trials of Tribulus terrestris (protodioscin) on oligozoospermia
N. Moeloek, A. Adimoelja, T. Tanojo, and W. Pangkahila
Proceedings of the 6th National Congress and 3rd International Symposium on New Perspectives of Andrology on Human Reproduction (1994)
National Congress of Indonesian Association of Andrologs

There is no clear difference in semen volume and sperm mobility after treatment. However, there are improvement in sperm concentration and morphology.

Protodioscin from herbal plant Tribulus terrestris L improves the male sexual functions, probably via DHEA
A. Adimoelja and P.G. Adaikan
Airlangga University, Indonesia, and the National University of Singapore
6th Biennial Asia-Pacific Meeting on Impotence in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (1997)
Int J Impotence Research v9, supp 1 (1997)

Effect of protodioscin (Tribulus terrestris) on the well-being and sexual response of men with diabetes mellitus
K.M. Arsyad
University of Sriwijaya, Medical Biology Division of Andrology, Indonesia (1997)

Treatment of sexual dysfunction in diabetes mellitus patients using orally administered protodioscin and injection of vasoactive compounds
A. Adimoelja
Academic Hospital Dr. Soetomo and Airlangga University, Surabaya, Indonesia
Seminar of Erectile Dysfunction of Diabetes in Bandung, Indonesia (1997)

Tribulusamide A and B, new hepatoprotective lignanamides from the fruits of Tribulus terrestris: indications of cytoprotective activity in murine hepatocyte culture
Li JX, Shi Q, Xiong QB, Prasain JK, Tezuka Y, Hareyama T, Wang ZT, Tanaka K, Namba T, Kadota S
Research Institute for Wakan-Yaku (Traditional Sino-Japanese Medicines), Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, Japan.
Planta Med 1998 Oct;64(7):628-31

Protective effects of Tribulus terrestris L. polysaccharide on genetic damage
Liu Q, Chen Y, Wang J, Chen X, Han Y
Chung Kuo Chung Yao Tsa Chih. 1995 Jul;20(7):427-9, 449

Pro-erectile pharmacological effects of Tribulus terrestris extract on the rabbit corpus cavernosum
P.G. Adaikan, K Gauthaman, and R.N. Prasad
National University of Singapore and National University Hospital, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Singapore
Ann Acad Med Singapore 2000 Jan; 29(1): 22-26

Changes in hormonal parameters secondary to intravenous administration of Tribulus terrestris extract in primates
A. Gauthaman, P.G. Adaikan, R.N. Prasad, V. Goh, and S. Ng
National University of Singapore
In preparation for publication

Aphrodisiac properties of Tribulus terrestris extract (protodioscin) in normal and castrated rats
A. Gauthaman, P.G. Adaikan, R.N. Prasad
National University of Singapore, National University Hospital, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Singapore
Life Sci 2002 Aug 9; 71(12): 1385-96

Pharmacological, pharmacokinetic, toxicological and clinical studies on protodioscin
I. Viktorov, E. Bozadjieva, M. Protich, et al.
Higher Medical Institute; Medical Academy Institute of Endocrinology, Gerontology and Geriatrics; Medical Academy Institute of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Bulgaria
IIMS Therapeutic Focus (1994)

Libilov and Tribulus terrestris Protodioscin Medical Reviews
Result of Protodioscin (Tribulus terrestris) treatment in males diagnosed with infertility and impotence
K.M. Arsyad
Medical Biology Division of Andrology, University of Sriwijaya, Indonesia

Phytochemicals: modern views and breakthrough in traditional herbal management of sexual dysfunctions
A. Adimoelja
Airlangga University, Surabaya, Indonesia
in 3rd AOAC Meeting, Chiba, Japan (2000)

[EKnight]

Great if you need help with libido, BUT there have been numerous studies indicating it does not help athletic performance in any way in humans. The International Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise. Metabolism (Antonio, et al, 2001) ran independent studies that showed no changes in muscular strength or body composition and no alteration whatsoever of blood or urine levels of testosterone to epitest levels. The trial has been replicated several times (see references in The Journal of Strength and Conditioning May 2007), thus this is not one or two incidences. Since the OP wanted to know about trib for athletic performance, its effect on libido is immaterial. -EK

[Possum]

Originally Posted by BendTheBar

With regards to studies, readers have to proceed with caution. One must look at the body of scientific work to gain a encompassing perspective. Any one of us could post a pet study or two for/against any product/supplement/training technique, and claim that this study proves a conclusion.

To be scientifically neutral, we must look at a body of clinical data. For tribulus - and for most test boosters - there is plenty of promising data that they work for some (not all). One must try a supplement like this to see if it is to their liking, or if it has benefit.

With all due respect to Eknight, each day I see a single study posted and someone eventually proclaims "issue resolved." With science, supplements and muscle building, one study's conclusion has become meaningless to me.

I would prefer a meta-analysis.

Testosterone products work differently for different individuals. I have lower testosterone - as I am older - so the benefit is more noticeable.

Relatively very little research on Tribulus has been done outside of Eastern Bloc countries, and the Far East. But a good portion of positive research does exist.

Some studies state "Supplementation with tribulus does not enhance body composition or exercise performance in resistance-trained males." With low testosterone levels, I can definitely tell that tribulus works because sexual function noticeably improves. This is not a placebo. I can't will myself into morning wood.

Having one or two studies showing that trib does little in trainees is not a be all, end all period to its validity. The prohormone culture uses it in bulk during PCT. I can tell you this...if it had no impact for "all", they wouldn't be using it. It works better for some then others. That's why it's a good idea to use a blended product.

Here is some information to read and consider. There is quite a bit of positive research backing Trib. I encourage everyone to read the conclusions to each study. Personally, there are studies for and against every supplement in the known universe. Does that make all supplements useless? Of course not. This is faulty logic.

http://www.libilov.com/en/clinical_s..._studies_1.htm

Libilov and Tribulus terrestris Protodioscin Clinical Studies


Effect of Tribulus terrestris treatment on impotence and libido disorders
A.W. Nasution
Andalas University School of Medicine, Padang, Indonesia (1993)



Tribulus terrestris (protodioscin) increases men's sex drive
W. Pangkahila
University of Denpasar, Reproductive Medicine Faculty, Indonesia
Proceedings of the 10th National Congress on New Perspectives of Andrology on Human Reproduction (1993)
National Congress of Indonesian Association of Andrologs



Tribulus terrestris (protodioscin) in the treatment of male infertility with idiopathic oligoasthenoteratozoospermia
A. Adimoelja, L. Setiawan, T. Djojotananjo
Academic Hospital Dr. Soetomo and Airlangga University, Surabaya, Indonesia
First International Conference of Medical Plants for Reproductive Medicine in Taipei, Taiwan (1995)



Effect of protodioscin on the quantity and quality of sperms from males with moderate idiopathic oligozoospermia
K.M. Arsyad
Medical Biology Division of Andrology, University of Sriwijaya, Indonesia (1996)
Medika 22(8): 614-618



Tribulus terrestris L. extract improves spermatozoa motility and increases the efficiency of acrosome reaction in patients diagnosed with oligoasthenoteratozoospermia
L. Setiawan
Airlangga University, Surabaya, Indonesia (1996)



Trials of Tribulus terrestris (protodioscin) on oligozoospermia
N. Moeloek, A. Adimoelja, T. Tanojo, and W. Pangkahila
Proceedings of the 6th National Congress and 3rd International Symposium on New Perspectives of Andrology on Human Reproduction (1994)
National Congress of Indonesian Association of Andrologs



Protodioscin from herbal plant Tribulus terrestris L improves the male sexual functions, probably via DHEA
A. Adimoelja and P.G. Adaikan
Airlangga University, Indonesia, and the National University of Singapore
6th Biennial Asia-Pacific Meeting on Impotence in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (1997)
Int J Impotence Research v9, supp 1 (1997)

Effect of protodioscin (Tribulus terrestris) on the well-being and sexual response of men with diabetes mellitus
K.M. Arsyad
University of Sriwijaya, Medical Biology Division of Andrology, Indonesia (1997)

Treatment of sexual dysfunction in diabetes mellitus patients using orally administered protodioscin and injection of vasoactive compounds
A. Adimoelja
Academic Hospital Dr. Soetomo and Airlangga University, Surabaya, Indonesia
Seminar of Erectile Dysfunction of Diabetes in Bandung, Indonesia (1997)

Tribulusamide A and B, new hepatoprotective lignanamides from the fruits of Tribulus terrestris: indications of cytoprotective activity in murine hepatocyte culture
Li JX, Shi Q, Xiong QB, Prasain JK, Tezuka Y, Hareyama T, Wang ZT, Tanaka K, Namba T, Kadota S
Research Institute for Wakan-Yaku (Traditional Sino-Japanese Medicines), Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, Japan.
Planta Med 1998 Oct;64(7):628-31

Protective effects of Tribulus terrestris L. polysaccharide on genetic damage
Liu Q, Chen Y, Wang J, Chen X, Han Y
Chung Kuo Chung Yao Tsa Chih. 1995 Jul;20(7):427-9, 449

Pro-erectile pharmacological effects of Tribulus terrestris extract on the rabbit corpus cavernosum
P.G. Adaikan, K Gauthaman, and R.N. Prasad
National University of Singapore and National University Hospital, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Singapore
Ann Acad Med Singapore 2000 Jan; 29(1): 22-26

Changes in hormonal parameters secondary to intravenous administration of Tribulus terrestris extract in primates
A. Gauthaman, P.G. Adaikan, R.N. Prasad, V. Goh, and S. Ng
National University of Singapore
In preparation for publication

Aphrodisiac properties of Tribulus terrestris extract (protodioscin) in normal and castrated rats
A. Gauthaman, P.G. Adaikan, R.N. Prasad
National University of Singapore, National University Hospital, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Singapore
Life Sci 2002 Aug 9; 71(12): 1385-96

Pharmacological, pharmacokinetic, toxicological and clinical studies on protodioscin
I. Viktorov, E. Bozadjieva, M. Protich, et al.
Higher Medical Institute; Medical Academy Institute of Endocrinology, Gerontology and Geriatrics; Medical Academy Institute of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Bulgaria
IIMS Therapeutic Focus (1994)

Libilov and Tribulus terrestris Protodioscin Medical Reviews
Result of Protodioscin (Tribulus terrestris) treatment in males diagnosed with infertility and impotence
K.M. Arsyad
Medical Biology Division of Andrology, University of Sriwijaya, Indonesia

Phytochemicals: modern views and breakthrough in traditional herbal management of sexual dysfunctions
A. Adimoelja
Airlangga University, Surabaya, Indonesia
in 3rd AOAC Meeting, Chiba, Japan (2000)

Rep for that, good post.